Richard Hilsley

135

C H on 10th March 2024

Old Bailey Online RICHARD HILSLEY. BENJAMIN LAWLESS. Theft; grand larceny (to 1827), Theft; receiving. 20th February 1805. Text type Trial account Defendants RICHARD HILSLEY, BENJAMIN LAWLESS Offences Theft > Grand larceny, Theft > Receiving Session Date 20th February 1805 Reference Number t18050220-11 Verdicts Guilty, Guilty > With recommendation Punishments Transportation, Transportation 135. RICHARD HILSLEY , and BENJAMIN LAWLESS , were indicted, the first, for feloniously stealing, on the 21st of January , four bushels of malt, value 2 l. the property of Nathaniel Brickwood ; and the other, for feloniously receiving the same, he well knowing it to have been stolen . (The case was opened by Mr. Gurney.) RICHARD GRANT sworn. - Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. You are servant to Mr. Brickwood? - A. I am. Q. Mr. Brickwood has a granary at Broken-wharf, in Upper Thames-street ? - A. Yes. Q. On the 21st of January, was the prisoner Hilsley in Mr. Brickwood's service? - A. Yes. Q. Upon that day, in the afternoon, did you go up into the floor, No. 2.? - A. Yes, about four in the afternoon; and I observed the heap of malt, and a strange man with the prisoner, in the floor No. 2, they were standing by a sack of malt, one on one side, and one on the other, by the malt heap; there were two sacks lying down, and one standing up, the sack that was standing up was turned inside out; all the sacks were close to the malt heap, the two sacks lying down had Mr. Brickwood's mark on them. Court. Q. You could not read what was marked on the third sack? - A. I could only see there was a mark. Mr. Gurney. Q. Did you make any particular observations on this sack of its contents? - A. There were red letter marks on it, and there was a little bit of a hole just by the top of the sack, I put my finger in this third sack, in the hole, and found it was malt; I did not say any thing to Hilsley then, nor the stranger, I left them there, and came away; about ten minutes afterwards Hilsley was coming out of No. 2, and going down stairs; I spoke to him then, and asked him what he was about; to the best of my recollection, he said, that he had been shutting a door in at the top; I then went up to No. 2, and the strange man was standing by the sack of malt, I staid there about five or six minutes, and then I came away, the strange man continued there; I only came down to No. 1, the floor below, where I staid ten or twelve minutes, and then went up to No. 2, again, and the strange man went to the floor No. 1, I saw him come below, and when I went up to No. 2, again, I saw Richard Hilsley , he went up before me to No. 2, and when I went up the third time, Hilsley took one of the sacks in his hands and set it up an end; I came down and left him there, and stopped below perhaps ten minutes or longer, between the wharf-gate and the mill; Hilsley came down, to the best of my recollection, and stood by the strange man, I was never out of sight of the warehouse, nor from under the roof all the time; I said to the stranger, I think you have the appearance of a soldier; Hilsley said, yes; I told Hilsley, and I spoke to a man that we had, that I was going to my quarters; I live in Old Fish-street-hill, I went away almost immediately, and left them both there in the wharf, this was near five o'clock; I had dropped a pocket-book, which I observed as soon as I came home, and returned immediately; I had not been gone from the wharf above ten minutes, at the farthest, and when I came within six or seven yards of my master's gate, in Broken-wharf, I saw Hilsley scrapling a sack on his shoulder, just as though he was taking it out of my master's little gate. Q. Was he outside of the gate before you saw him? - A. Yes, just got there; it appeared to my eye that he had just come through the wicket, by his scrapling it up; there are two glass lamps just by the gateway; I could see to pick up a pin; he got it on his shoulder and met me, and I met him in the yard, with the sack on his shoulder; the two lamps reflect a very bright light, within five yards of my master's gateway; I saw his face, his stockings and shoes, and likewise the sack of malt that was on his shoulder; I am sure it was Hilsley, I spoke to him but he would not speak to me; I felt the sack with my hand, and felt it to be malt; the sack appeared to have no mark on it; I stopped at the gate, and found somebody was fastening the wicket. Court. Q. Could you by the light of the lamps form any judgment whether the sack was turned inside out? - A. It appeared to be wrong side out, by the light of the lamps. Mr. Gurney. Q. Was it the usual hour to shut the gates? - A. No, just as the carts come in; sometimes eight or nine o'clock; they are usually put to before they are finally fastened; I followed the prisoner by the light of the lamps; he went up Broken-wharf, and went into No. 57, Upper Thames-street, a green-grocer's shop, kept by Lawless , as a person told me; he went into No. 57, the door was then standing open, he went into the passage and pitched the sack down, I am sure it was Hilsley that went in with the sack, he went into a little room, the glass door of which faced the street door; a man came with a light. Q. Could you at all see that man's face so as to know him? - A. I could not; Hilsley staid in the house about ten minutes, and I stood at the street door; I saw Hilsley in the room, and when he came out I stepped back, and then I came up to him, and said, Richard, is that you; he replied, yes; I then went immediately to Mr. Brickwood's warehouse, No. 2, and there I saw that the sack that was standing up first, and had been turned inside out, was missing, and only the two other sacks were there; there was no malt at that time at No. 1, only oats. Q. Did you inform the clerk of any suspicion that you had? - A. Not till the next day. Cross-examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. What time was it on the next day that you told any body about it? - A. Perhaps twelve o'clock to the best of my recollection. Q. You were upon extremely good terms with Hilsley? - A. I had nothing against him, I had a few light words, but not to bear him any malice; I never had any quarrel with him, only a few sharp words, such as when men are at work they catch up one thing and the other another thing, and one finds fault with the other. Q. How long have you lived with your master? - A. About a fortnight before last Michaelmas; Hilsley was on the wharf when I came there. Q. Your master is a lighterman? - A. He is a corn and coal factor. Q. Have you not a variety of people's sacks in your master's warehouse, and so you borrow one of another in the course of your trade? - A. Never, none but the London company's sacks; they are sacks that come with flour. Q. These are not the only persons that your master deals with? - A. No. Q. Therefore there are other sacks that find their way into your master's warehouses? - A. It might be so. Q. Now, whenever you have taken out the malt from a sack, you turn it inside out if it belongs to another person; have you never seen that done before in your life? - A. I never saw it done there; I have seen flour sacks turned inside out, and then turned back again. Q. At the time you saw the prisoner pitch it on his shoulder, that was the very time that the person, whoever it was, was going through the wicket? - A. It was just by the wicket, he had just got through the wicket. Q. Was there any lamp there? - A. There was a light there. Q. Therefore, if any person was there he must see the person go through the wicket? - A. I cannot say, I did not see the other person. Q. But if there was any person they might have seen him for what you know; you have said, the moment that person went through the wicket, the gate was shut? - A. Yes. Q. You have said that you stood at the door of the house, No. 57, and you looked through the passage to the glass door? - A. Yes. Q. Was there a lamp at the street door? - A. No, there might be a lamp-iron at the door, that I cannot say; there was a light in the room, and the glass door opened immediately as he went into the room. Q. When he went into the room where there was a light, did the door shut immediately as he went into the room? - A. Not immediately; I believe it was a minute or two after Hilsley went into the room with the sack before he shut the door. Q. You are quite sure that he left the door open to give an opportunity of looking at him, whoever it was; and that he shut the door after he had let you see every thing he had done? - A. He pitched the sack, and then the door was shut. Q. I understood you to say, in your original examination, that a man came with a light? - A. Yes, he had a candle. Q. Can you tell us whether you know the face of that person again? - A. I saw the face of that person, but I cannot tell him again. Q. Will you tell us how that man was drest? - A. No, I cannot. Q. Did Hilsley return to work again? - A. I never saw him any more that night; I saw him the next day at my master's wharf as usual, between eight and nine o'clock in the morning. Q. What is the size of the wicket? - A. I never measured it; it is a wicket I can go through with a little difficulty, by stooping my head I can easily go through it myself, it would not take two persons to go through at the same time. Q. Have you yourself seen persons carrying loads through the wicket? - A. No, never; the gates are always open in the day, I could take a sack through there with stooping my head. Mr. Gurney. Q. You say you could carry a sack through, could you pull a sack through? - A. Yes. Q. Is it a usual thing to turn sacks inside out, and then fill them again? - A. Just as they require it. Q. Had you ever any quarrel with Hilsley to bear him any malice? - A. Never. Court. Q. You observed this stranger a great deal, was it light or dark? - A. I did observe him, it was about four o'clock in the day, not very light, I could see to do any thing in the granary. Q. Do you think you should know him again if you were to see him? - A. I think I should; I never have seen him since. Q. At the time you were watching Hilsley in the passage of No. 57, do you think that person who had a light had his back to you? - A. He stood with his face to me. Q. Have you any reason to suppose that he saw you? - A. I cannot form any judgment whether he did or not. Q. You did not speak to Hilsley or any parties at the time the sack was being carried to No. 57? - A. No. Q. You had not any reason to know what was in the sack but by feeling as he was going from the wicket to No. 57? - A. I felt it a great many times, I did not put my finger in the hole then; I never lost sight of the prisoner, when he came out of No. 57, I did not observe he had any empty sack then. NATHANIEL BRICKWOOD sworn. - Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. We understand you carry on the business of corn and coal factor , at Broken-wharf? - A. I do: On the 22d of last month, about five o'clock, I took with me two constables, Hughes and Comley, to No. 57, a green-grocer's shop, where I found the prisoner, Lawless, on the ground-floor, in a room where he usually slept, as I understood; I found three sacks and a half of malt there; I took a separate sample from each of the three sacks, but not from the half sack; I compared the three samples, and every one of the samples were like the bulk of malt in No. 2; I could not discover the least shade of difference in the world between the bulk and these samples; I have been in the malt trade upwards of thirty-four years, I have had a great many thousand quarters. Q. Therefore you are not an unexperienced person, and as far as belief can go, what is your belief? - A. Really, as I am in the presence of Heaven, I believe that the three sacks of malt were stolen from me, I have no doubt of it; on the 23d, I had the bulk measured by sworn meters, I found a deficiency of two quarters and six bushels. Q. How many bushels did you find in the sacks? - A. I believe them to be as near as possible about four bushels, they were full sacks; I saw Lawless when I first went in, but he was taken away by Hughes, the constable; Comley assisted in searching, I did not see the malt when I first saw Lawless, he was not in the room where the malt was found. Cross-examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. I understand that you knew the prisoner Lawless, that he has been in your service? - A. He has, and I have known him living at No. 57 for nearly a twelvemonth; he had worked occasionally for me as a labourer, he had never been a fixed servant. Q. Do you know, of your own knowledge, that he carried on any business at that time? - A. No, I have heard he kept a chandler's shop, and sold greens. Q. People who deal in the chandlery line sell beans, and malt, and other articles? - A. I never heard of a person that sold greens to sell malt. Q. You did not take any notice of the room with the glass door? - A. I was in that room, I took no notice of the door. Q. You have heard that that was the room in which the malt was deposited? - A. I heard so. Q. Whether you sell by wholesale or retail, or both? - A. Only wholesale. Q. How lately before had you sold any quantity of malt? - A. On the 14th of January I sold fifteen quarters to Messrs. Dodd and Turner, in Tooley-street, and five quarters to Mr. Golding, in St. Giles's; I estimated that I had ten quarters, and it was from that I was induced to send for sworn meters, to ascertain the quantity; I took stock about the 2d of January. Court. Q. Is there any other person who keeps corn within any warehouse to which your gate leads? - A. None, I do not let any part of my warehouses to any corn-dealer whatever; I have no partner. Q. What is the value of the three bushels? - A. Two pounds. JAMES COMLEY sworn. - Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. I believe you are ward beadle to Queenhithe? - A. Yes: On the 22d of January, I went with the prisoner, Hilsley, to the Compter; I then went to Lawless's house. Q. How long have you known the house, No. 57? - A. Thirty-eight years, I have known Lawless six years, he has kept the ground floor of that house for three or four years, I have seen him in the room where the malt was found, he sleeps there, and I have seen him with the mash-tub, brewing in the back room; he keeps a chandler's shop; I have seen him making use of all the three rooms; the back room has had a glass door, but the glass is all out, and has been some years. Court. Q. Have you been frequently in this shop? - A. Yes; he sold oysters, candles, small beer, and split peas; it is not a corn-chandler's shop; I have seen him brew there about once a week; I measured the wicket, the width is one foot three, and the heighth is four foot six. THOMAS HUGHES sworn. - Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. Did you go with Comley and Mr. Brickwood to No. 57? - A. Yes. Q. How long have you known him live there? - A. He has been there three or four years; he paid twenty-seven pounds a year for the ground floor. Q. Have you ever seen him before in that room before you apprehended him? - A. Yes, he keeps a chandler's shop there, and sells butter and cheese, and all kinds of greens. Cross-examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. What are you considering of - have you ever been here before? - A. Yes, as a witness and a constable. Q. Were you ever tried here? - A. Yes, I was, but I was acquitted. Hilsley's defence. I am innocent of this piece of business, I am wrongfully accused; Grant accused me the next day when I had been at work; as I was going out of the yard, he asked me if I did not carry a sack out of the gate, as I was putting on my coat to go to dinner; I said, no; he said, he thought I was the man; he said, he saw a man carry a sack from the gate, and go along with it up the street; I gave him some rough language, he told me the less I said the better; we had been filling a tub full of oats, I worked there all the day till night, when Mr. Hughes came and took me; he swears wrongfully to me, I am not the man. Lawless's defence. I am innocent; I never bought a grain of corn of this gentleman in my life. For the Prisoner. GEORGE DENNISON sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. You are in Mr. Brickwood's service? - A. Yes; I am ostler. Q. On Monday the 21st of January, did you bar the wicket, and put the chain up? - A. Yes; I cannot justly say what time, it was past four o'clock. Q. Did you see the prisoner go out that afternoon? - A. I let him out at the wicket, he was alone. Q. Was there any light, or any candle, at the wicket? - A. No. Q. Did you observe the prisoner, to see if he had any thing about him? - A. He had his great coat on his back, nothing else. Q. You did not see him go to the wicket with any thing on his shoulder? - A. No. Q. Did you see any body else go out with any thing on their shoulder that afternoon? - A. No, I did not; that I am quite sure of, I can be upon my oath. Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. You did not see Grant go through the wicket at all? - A. No. Q. Nor did you see him standing by the wicket? - A. I did not. Q. Would it be possible, in the situation in which you were, for him to have gone out with a sack on his shoulder without your seeing it? - A. He had nothing on his back. Q. Could any man take a sack from your master's yard without your seeing it? - A. I cannot say, because when I am in the stable I cannot see what is done there; I was in the stable when Hilsley came and asked me to let him out. Q. Whether he had been out before, or had not been out, you do not know? - A. The wicket was chained when I went to let him out. Q. Any body might open the great gates? - A. Yes, they were not locked. Q. Supposing I were there, and had a sack upon my shoulder, I might have gone out and you not have known it? - Q. It would make a great rattle if you did it. Q. Would you venture to swear that nobody opened the wicket, and put the chain up again, without your knowing of it? - A. No. Q. All that you mean to swear is, that when you let Hilsley out, he had no sack on his shoulder; and the moment you let him out you shut the door, therefore, whether Grant was at the door you cannot tell? - A. No. Court. Q. Had you any suspicion that caused or induced you to look, to see if any body was outside of the wicket? - A. No; I did not look to see, I had no suspicion. SAMUEL POULTON sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. Do you remember, on the 21st of January, Dennison letting the prisoner Hilsley out at the wicket? - A. I saw the prisoner, and the last witness letting him out at the yard; I saw the prisoner go first, and Dennison go afterwards; I did not observe that the prisoner had any thing with him but his great coat, he stood within half a yard of me at the time he went out. Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. You were at that time bushel-man, and foreman to Mr. Brickwood; you were turned off? - A. Yes. Q. You had the care of the malt, had you not? - A. Yes. Q. You took good care of it? - A. I took as good care of it as I possibly could, I did not see any carried away; I do not recollect that I had been up to No. 2, since the morning; I had lived with Mr. Brickwood about nine months. Cross-examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. If you had seen any body take any sack of malt on his shoulder, what should you have thought it your duty to do? - A. To have told my master; if the prisoner had had a sack on his shoulder, I should have told my master; but I swear positively he had not. Court. Q. What is the smallest quantity that you sell? - A. I never knew any less than a quarter sold at the time I lived there. Q. (To Prosecutor.) What is the smallest quantity that you have sold? - A. Five quarters; to oblige a friend, I might have sold two or three quarters; but that I do not believe I have done above two or three times in my life; never so little as a quarter. AARON WAIGHT sworn. - Examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. You were porter to Mr. Brickwood, at the wharf? - A. Yes. Q. He has turned you off, as he has the other servants? - A. No; he would have turned me off, he left word with the miller for me not to stay, but I was going off; I saw the prisoner in the dusk of the evening, at No. 1, and I saw him going down stairs, it was between four and five o'clock, he had nothing with him only his great coat; I did not see him any more that evening, I staid not quite half an hour after him; I am sure he had nothing with him when he went down. Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. Who was it that brought the sack down stairs? - A. I cannot say. Q. Did you see the strange man there? - A. I did not see any strange man there. Q. Do you know Shepherd, a soldier? - A. I know many soldiers; I have seen a man that goes by the name of Shepherd. Q. Was not he there between four and five in the afternoon? - A. He was not, upon my oath, not that I saw. Q. What were you about at four o'clock? - A. I must have been at No. 1, or on the stairs No. 2. Q. What was the greatest part of the evening that you were at No. 1, or No. 2, without any intermission? - A. I cannot say. JOHN JENNINGS sworn - Examined by Mr. Knapp. Q. I believe you are agent to the Henley Navigation company? - A. Yes, I live at No. 4, Amelia-place, at present, and I hold an apartment of Mr. Lawless, for which I pay him eight guineas a year, at the back of the passage in the front of the street. Q. Is there any glass-door to that room? - A. There is a glass-door, but not much glass in it, it is almost broken, the door is generally open at all times of the day. Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. How often are you there? - A. Generally every day, sometimes I am there two hours, and sometimes four or five, and sometimes I do not come at all. Q. When you are not there Mr. Lawless has the use of that room? - A. It is free open for any person to bring sacks in. Q. I might go there if I choosed; he brews there once a week? - A. I cannot say that, I have seen him brew. Q. Every fortnight? - A. I cannot say, he has brewed frequently in that room. Court. Q. Do you know the other prisoner, Hilsley? - A. I do not know him when I see him, I heard of Lawless being taken up on the next day. Mr. Gurney. Q. On the evening before he was taken up, did you light any man with a sack into that room? - A. No; I am sure I was not there so late. Q. Have you any authority to dispose of any of the Henley Navigation company's corn? - A. No, I have sold corn so far as this, if I wanted a sack of corn for myself or my friends, I could have it. Q. Did you ever sell any sack of malt to Lawless? - A. I never did. Court. (To Prosecutor.) Q. Supposing a person employed in the warehouse No. 2, could any person come from the warehouse No. 2 with a load, and not be observed in No. 1? - A. Yes, for nothing is more clear; there is a fire burning for three months together in the kiln, and it very often happens that men are roasting potatoes at the fire; when I have gone in the floor No. 1, and could not find them, nothing is so easy for fifty men to come down from No. 2, and not to hear them; there is a temporary erection which would conceal fifty people in No. 1, what we call the pea warehouse, and persons passing from No. 2 could not be observed, but there are many situations in No. 1 in which persons could not pass it without being seen. Q. (To Waight.) Do you mean to say that there is no part in No. 1 but in which you could observe any person coming from No. 2? - A. No, it is as Mr. Brickwood has said; but all the part where I worked at no man could pass without my seeing him; I was at work for half an hour at that part of the warehouse which overlooked the stair-case that leads to No. 2, I was sorting of sacks, the ragged ones from the whole, and putting the room to rights. The prisoner, Hilsley, called three witnesses, who gave him a good character. The prisoner, Lawless, called three witnesses, who gave him a good character. Hilsley, GUILTY, aged 54. Transported for seven years . Lawless, GUILTY , aged 47, Transported for fourteen years . The Jury recommended Hilsley to mercy, on account of his good character .