John Hartcup

Level 135

C H on 25th February 2024

Old Bailey Online JOHN HARTCUP. THOMAS BUCKLEY. DANIEL BUCKLEY. JOHN HOMER. Royal Offences; coining offences. 6th April 1808 Text type Trial account Defendants JOHN HARTCUP, THOMAS BUCKLEY, DANIEL BUCKLEY, JOHN HOMER Offences Royal Offences > Coining offences Session Date 6th April 1808 Reference Number t18080406-70 Verdicts Guilty, Guilty, Guilty, Guilty Punishments Transportation 332. JOHN HARTCUP , THOMAS BUCKLEY , DANIEL BUCKLEY , and JOHN HOMER , were indicted for that they on the 26th of March, one piece of false and counterfeited coin, not the proper coin of this realm, nor permitted to be current within the same, but made to the likeness and similitude of a certain foreign prince's coin, to wit, the King of Prussia's coin, called a gulden , And other counts for like offence, with intention to pass as a piece of silver coin in the kingdom of Prussia. Four other counts in like manner, calling the coin that they counterfeited an eight grosschen piece. The indictment was read by Mr. Knapp, and the case stated by Mr. Fielding. JOHN ARMSTRONG . Q. You are an officer of Worship street office. - A. Yes. Q. In consequence of a warrant that you had from the magistrate, did you go on the 26th of March to a house No. 12, King street, St. James's, Clerkenwell . - A. Yes, in company with Vickery and Bishop, between three and four o'clock in the afternoon; I sent Vickery to ring the bell, I was standing outside of the door, young Buckley opened the door to us. I told him I had a warrant to search; we all three of us went in, we shut the outer door; we went through a passage where the door opened, that presented a washhouse or a back kitchen. On the side of that washhouse was a place which I thought was an accompting house adjoined to it; we went into it; I returned out of that; went into a yard; it crossed that washhouse to a privy; and in a shed (I went along with Vickery there), there were two stamps then fixed. Q. What sort of stamps. - A. A pair of dies in one, and only one die in the other, the bottom die. We had Buckley with us at the time. We came back into this accompting house; there upon a counter was a scale fixed to a beam; at the further end of that counter was a writing desk; I lifted up the top of that desk I found a paper, which when I opened, was a quantity of this coin, which I now produce, it appeared very fresh. In a drawer under the counter were some blanks in a paper which were not struck, but were edged; there was adjoining to that a stone place (it formerly had been used in a silver manufactory) and a cutter, which stood in the corner, with a quantity of this sissel of copper; in that place there was a a pan with some pickle then standing in it; in a box in the accompting house, close by the side where this money was found, I found this pan and another box, with a composition of something which will produce the colour of silver. In the same place was a quantity of saw dust, some clean and some dirty, and on the counter was a card of shirt buttons. We went down into the kitchen below stairs, there was a quantity of watch seals in paper; then we returned up to a shop which has two stair cases for the workmen to go out of the shop without going through the house; that is over the back kitchen and the accompting house; there was what is called an edging tool fixed there, with two lathes, but nobody at work; in the accompting house there was a great quantity of other money that we have in bags; this was on the box, stuffed with saw dust. There was two bags full of small money in the same accompting house; the apparatus was all brought away by the officers. I and Vickrey took young Buckley in Spital fields; I left Mason and Bishop behind me; we took these things on the Saturday. On the Sunday we went there to take the apparatus down. Q. All this apparatus, the composition and the pickles, are they such things as coiners make use of. - A. Yes. Q. And they were all complete for work. - A. Yes, the large dies were then set. COURT. What do you call sissell. - A. It is the waste copper out of which the blanks are cut; pickle will produce on the surface the silver out of the metal; it is made of aqua fortis and cream of tartar. The composition I believe is silver dissolved. Q. Then every thing seems to be complete. - A. Yes. JOHN FREEMAN. Q. You are acquainted with Prussia. - A. Yes, I am a Prussian. Q. Is there any coin in Prussia similar to these. - A. There is; the large piece is called a golden, and the smaller piece a groschen. Q. Do they appear to be made as the foreign Prussian coin. - A. Yes. Q. These are not the coin of Prussia, but counterfeits. - A. They do resemble it, but not so as to be deceived. Mr. Gurney. Do they resemble so as one would be taken for the other. - A. The large coin, if it came to my inspection, I certainly should not take it for the real coin. Q. That is not because it is worn out, as some of our shillings are. - A. No, the real Prussian coin has a remarkable likeness of the king; this face is not like the king's face at all. Q. Is it a coin of silver mixed with copper. - A. I cannot tell; no coin in Prussia is considered as silver but the rix dollar; I suppose they are mixed. Q. Now the grosschen, the proper name of that is gute grosschen. - A. Yes; but in the provinces where these are done, it goes by the name of grosschen; in the kingdom it goes by the name of gute grosschen. Q. Do you know whether this coin is struck at Berlin or at Brandenburgh. - A. I cannot answer it. Q. How many different mints are there in the Prussian state. - A. The mints in the different provinces are for the smaller money; I know only of one, at Koeningsberg. Q. You are not employed in the mint of Prussia. A. No; it is four years ago since I was in Prussia. Q. Do not the coins change. - A. About four years ago, when I went home, I did not find any difference in the coin. JOHN JOHNSON . Q. Are you an assayer. - A. Yes, I assayed two of these pieces brought to my office last Saturday; the counterfeit one contains eighteen grains of silver and a pound weight of copper; the good one contains seven ounces seventeen penny weights of silver, and four ounces three penny-weights of copper. JOHN VICKREY . Q. You are an officer. - A. I am; I went in with the other officers; the house is situated, in the way Mr. Armstrong has described. I passed through the washhouse into the yard; at the further end of the yard was a shed; within that shed was fixed two stamping engines, the dies were both set in the engine for the large piece of coin; in the small stamping engine was one die fixed in the bottom; the reverse die was out; - in a box close to the left hand of the large engine, I found several pieces of large coin, that exactly matched with the large die; I read the inscription on the die and on one of the pieces, and they were exactly alike, letter for letter; there was a little wooden box, which is now out of doors in the cart with the other heavy and large instruments; the press was worked by means of the foot; there was a hole dug in the ground two feet and a half deep, and when the bed of the die was fixed it came to their hands; it was worked by the foot in this manner [witness describing it], the dies being close to their middle; they could work without stopping to it. In this box was another die, it appears to be the top die in the small press; to this little shed was a small window; the stamps were between the men that worked and the light, it threw a light down upon the bed of the work; they stood with their faces to the press, and the light was on the opposite side of them; there was a curtain to prevent any body from looking in; in this same drawer there were several pieces of coin which I have here, with the dies; these were found in this box, where the die out of the small press was found. Court. What is that. - A. Pieces of coin resembling these large and small; the principal part is large - that there was found in the drawer; some of them are perfect and some appear to have been struck twice to see whether the dye would take the effect. These are the dies that were in the large stamping engine; this die was fixed in the bed of the small stamping engine; these dies were left in this box; these three were left to all that was there, the officers all saw it; we then went to the accompting house, there was a counter fixed in the accompting house with several dies on it; there were some dies on it; there were some drawers standing on the top of it, and there were two or three cards of sleeve buttons on it, as if for the purpose of shewing to gentlemen that they dealt in buttons. At the further part of this accompting house was a desk; I saw Armstrong take out a large paper of this coin; I produce the edging tool; I saw a cutting engine standing at the right hand corner coming in; I saw the pickle and the silvery composition; there were two laths up stairs, there were several other working tools that did not appear to this business, therefore they were not brought away; the dies and small articles were taken away on Saturday night; on Sunday we went again for the purpose of taking away the stamping engine; after we had taken away the top part there was a large iron bed which weighs near three hundred pounds weight; it was fixed in a block; in doing that I found coming out of the ground this piece of coin, it is completely fresh; in moving the small die we found two or three pieces of coin. Old Buckley and Hartcup was taken in custody, while we were gone to search Hartcup's house at Kilburn; when we came back a taylor came and said he had two suits of clothes; he was asked if he would leave them; be said no, he took them away afterwards Homer came, he was taken in custody. Q. He did not come in the house. - A. I believe Bishop went out and took him in the yard. Mr. Alley. Homer merely came to the door and you took him in custody. - A. I do not think he was in the house till he was brought in. DANIEL BISHOP . Q. You are an officer. - A. Yes; I went there. Q. Before you were left in the house by Armstrong what did you find. - A. On searching an iron safe in the kitchen below stairs, I found thirteen dies for small coin. Q. Of the grosschen. - A. Yes, likewise a box of small coin all completed. I was left in the care of the house, and about dusk I heard the key put in the street door on the outside. I placed myself behind the door, when the prisoner Hartcup came in, and under his arms he had some bags similar to these, and some brown paper, one large bag and two small ones; the larger bag corresponded with the bag which holds the small coin; immediately he came in, I asked him if his name was Hartcup; he said it was; I took him into custody. I asked him if the premises belonged to him; he said they did, and that he paid seventy five pounds a year for it to a Mr. Carpenter; I saw the agreement of the lease in his pocket; these are two bills for blanks bought of Messrs. Bett's and sons; in a few minutes the bell rung, I placed myself behind the door and opened the door, when the elder Mr. Buckley came in; he said he wanted to see a Mr. Nixon; I let him into the parlour, I told him what we were there for. I took him in custody; about nine o'clock the bell rung again, I opened the door and stood behind it; no person coming in I went across the yard to the iron gate, when Homer was standing at the gate with a bundle under his arm, which turned out afterwards to be a shoulder of mutton; the moment he saw me he turned away; I said walk in; he said he knew nothing about it; I told him we had not said any thing about it what it was; we took him in custody. In the shed where this press was found, I found this small coin, which corresponds with a pair of dies that I have here. Q. How many dies did you find altogether. - A. Thirteen. MR. MARSH. Q. You are a publican in the neighbourhood - look at the prisoners and see if you know them. - A. I know the three shortest, the other I do not remember seeing him. Q. You speak to all but Hartcup. - A. Yes, them three I saw. Q. How far did they live from your house. - A. About a hundred and fifty yards; I have seen them more than once or twice, each of them; they have been to my house to order beer to be carried to that place; I have frequently called for the pots, and each of them have given me the pots; they have just opened the door and the pot was handed out to me; I think for more than three months I served them, during which time I had an opportunity of seeing them. PETER MASON. Q. You are an officer - tell me my good fellow what you found. - A. Here is an aqua fortis bottle I found there, and here is another with oil of vitriol, and a curtain that was hanging at the shop door, a couple of cloths that have been whitening of them; there was a large pan with pickle. I took this vial full out; this pickle came from the same pan that Mr. Armstrong has described. JOHN HODINOT . Q. Do you know No. 12, King street, the house inhabited by these men. - A. Yes; in consequence of information that I received I went to a neighbour's in King street, I went to the top of the leads over Mr. Fernough's workshop, I heard a noise of something like a stamp going; I immediately went to Worship street office and gave information of it to Mr. Armstrong; I work in the iron business; I saw two stamps; after the officers made the entry I went in. Q. Would these stamps make the noise you heard. A. Exactly so. Cross-examined by Mr. Alley. Although you had an opportunity of going upon the top of the house, you could not see these men doing any thing. - A. I could not see the men, I could only hear. Q. You do not know that they inhabited the house. - A. I saw one man in the house, and another man came in while I was there. MR. FURNOUGH. Q. You live next door to No. 12, King street - could you from your house command a view of the shed in the yard. - A. Yes, we can. Q. Do you know by whom this house was occupied. - A. No. Q. During the time the persons inhabited the house - be they who they will - had you ever heard any particular noise that has been stated. - A. Yes; I have frequently heard the noise of stamping, from the first time they came. Q. Do you know either of the prisoners. - A. One, Mr. Buckley; I have seen him go by the door and go into his own house as I conceived. Q. Have you seen either of the others. - A. I have seen men about; I do not know that I can swear to either of the other prisoners; the tall man I can say nothing about. Q. Have you seen persons go backwards and forwards to the shed. - A. I have. Q. Do you know either of the persons that went into the shed. - A. No. Q. What were they carrying. - A. One time when one come out another went in with him, he carried something in a box. Q. Do you know the accompting house. - A. Yes; one morning I saw things like coin in the scale; I saw them weighing a great number, as much as those bags would contain. Cross-examined by Mr. Gurney. How often have you seen Buckley go in. - A. The last two months, I have seen him go out five or six times. OLIVER RAINE . Q. You live with Mr. Furnough. A. Yes; I have heard a noise go like a stamping engine several times on the premises; I do not know either of the prisoners. One time I saw a man in the accompting house weighing some pieces of coin in a paper, about that bag full. SARAH WALLIN. Q. We understand you go out a chairing - did you chair at No. 12, King street, Clerkenwell. - A. Yes, twice; the first time was a little after Christmas, and the second time about five weeks before I heard of this disturbance; I have seen Mr. Hartcup once, and I seen Mr. Buckley and his son at the house. Q. Do you know the other. - A. I have seen him, he told me he was a lodger in the house; I never saw any woman in the house but myself; I believe both the Buckleys slept in the house, there was a bed in the one pair of stairs and in the two pair of stairs; Daniel Buckley was about the house all the day I was there; and Mr. Buckley and son dined with me in the kitchen; Hartcup came in the evening, and Buckley paid me. MR. CARPENTER. Q. I believe you are the landlord of this house. - A. I am. Hartcup was my tenant. Hartcup and another person was with him when he took my house; they said that they intended to manufacture thimbles and coffin nails upon a new principle, they thought they should get a good deal of money by so doing; I have been twice in the shop since they took it. Hartcup's Defence. I had taken that house of Mr. Carpenter, I paid him five pounds earnest; after that I repented what I had done, and one Mr. Nixon who was with me, he told me he would take the house, and it must go as it was; I kept the writings, as I did not get back my money, and I kept the key; I called on Saturday night, being the first Saturday after quarter day; there were some people in the house that shut me in, whom I never saw before. Thomas Buckley 's Defence. I lodged in the house; I frequently got up about eight o'clock in the morning, and before ten o'clock I left it, as I had commission business; I was very seldom at home till late in the evening. I know nothing of this business. Daniel Buckley 's Defence. I lodged in the house; I know nothing, and I am innocent of the kind. Homer's Defence. I lodged in the house, and I worked for Mr. Bushby, St. Martin's lane. I came home on Saturday, I saw several men in the house, and they detained me. MR. BUSHBY. Q. What are you sir. - A. I am a gilt and plated button manufacturer. Homer worked for me four weeks and one day; he was in my employ down to the evening he was taken up; he quitted my house about seven o'clock that evening. Mr. Fielding. Do you know yourself where he lodged. A. I did not; he was employed by me in burnishing of buttons and occasionally in the stamps; he was an industrious man the time I have known him. Homer called one other witness, who said he was in Mr. Bushby's employ. Hartcup called two witnesses, who gave him a good character. Thomas and Daniel Buckley called one witness, who gave them a good character. HARTCUP, GUILTY aged 50. THOMAS BUCKLEY , GUILTY aged 57. DANIEL BUCKLEY, GUILTY aged 19. HOMER, GUILTY , aged 19. Transported for Seven Years . First Middlesex jury, before Mr. Recorder.