John Jones

Level 338

Penny-Lyn Beale on 24th November 2024

*** SHIP - NEPTUNE *** New South Wales, Australia, Convict Indents Name John Jones Date of Conviction 7 May 1788 Place of Conviction Old Bailey Vessel Neptune Date of Arrival Jun 1790 © 1997-2024 Ancestry 1821 - Convict Lists. John Jones Old Bailey Mar 1788. Labourer in the Colony 1825 - Convict Muster. F.S. Labourer. Sydney

Level 135

C H on 18th February 2024

Old Bailey Online JOHN GRAY. JOHN JONES. Theft; grand larceny (to 1827). 7th May 1788. Text type Trial account Defendants JOHN GRAY, JOHN JONES Offences Theft > Grand larceny Session Date 7th May 1788 Reference Number t17880507-51 Verdicts Guilty Punishments Transportation 380. JOHN GRAY and JOHN JONES were indicted for stealing, on the 26th of April , a piece of gold coin, called a guinea , the money of William Gibson . (The case opened by Mr. Silvester.) Mrs. GIBSON sworn. I keep a shop in Hendon ; I sell stockings and shoes, and grocery; I remember the two prisoners coming to my shop on the 26th of April, it was on Saturday in the afternoon, about half after two; they came in a one horse chaise; and John Gray got out, and came in and asked for a pair of shoes, for a boy thirteen years of age. Court. Did you know these people before? - No, I never saw them before to my knowledge; I immediately shewed him a pair; he said, they were too big; then I shewed him another pair; he said, they were too big; he asked for a pair of stockings, and I shewed him some; and he said, they would not do; the other man came in directly afterwards; that was the prisoner Jones; and John Gray asked me to give him change for a guinea; I told him I could not; then he asked me, whether I could give him some silver, and he would leave the guinea with me, and call for it by and by; I took the scales and weighed the guinea, and it was weight; I put my hand in my pocket, and pulled out my silver; and in my hand I had two guineas both in my hand; upon which Jones reached over the counter, and put his hand over my hand, and said, I had got a bad one; he did not mention either guinea or shilling; I immediately said, I had got a bad shilling, but did not mean to give it to the gentleman, which was John Gray ; Jones put his hand into my hand, and John Gray immediately said, give me my own guinea again; I returned him his guinea again; I immediately gave them their own guinea, and they went out of the house; they said, they would come again by and by, and bring the lad to fit the shoes on. Which way did they go? - Towards Hampstead; they both got into the chaise, and drove away as hard as ever they could drive; they had not been gone a minute, before I put my hand into my pocket, and found I had lost one of my guineas. Court. Then you had put your money back into your pocket? - Yes, and I immediately had them pursued, and they were brought back; they were pursued by some persons on foot, and some on horseback back; they were taken at the Spotted dog at Wilsden; John Gray and John Jones both got out of the chaise, and came into my shop; and John Gray put his hand into his pocket, and gave me the guinea back again; and said, that was my guinea; I immediately said, that was my guinea, for it was a light guinea, and a black mark upon it; it stood, and it hardly stood; I said, I would take my oath, that was my guinea; they wanted to make it up, and offered any money to make it up; and my husband being a constable, insisted on my taking them before a justice of peace. Court. You say they wanted to make it up; did Jones say any thing? - I will not be particular to Jones; Gray did; he was desirous of making it up; and offered me any money to make it up; and they were taken before Mr. Montague; they said all that they could say; they said, I had got my money, and what could I desire more. Who said that? - Both John Gray and John Jones said so. Court. Was what was said before Mr. Montague taken down in writing? - Yes. Who produced the guinea? - John Gray is the man that produced it; he laid the guinea on the counter; my husband took it up immediately, and put it in his mouth; he produces it now. WILLIAM GIBSON sworn. I am the husband of the last witness; I was constable then; I was present when the men were brought back; as soon as ever they were brought into the house, they confessed they had got the guinea. Had you said any thing to induce them to confess? - Not a word; John Gray pulled out two guineas, and he looked at them, and he said, that is your guinea, Madam; yes, said she, I will swear to it; because it has a black mark upon it; I immediately took it, and put it into my mouth. (The guinea produced and deposed to.) Court. Have you weighed it since? - It was weighed; I know it to be too light; I am sure that is the same guinea. ISAAC WITH sworn. I apprehended the prisoners; I saw Gray return the guinea to Mrs. Gibson. PRISONER GRAY's DEFENCE. I was rather in liquor; this gentleman was sober; one of the gentlemen that took us has not been examined yet. PRISONER JONES's DEFENCE. I will tell your lordship the truth, and the gentlemen of the Jury likewise; on the 25th of April, it was on a Friday, I went to Smithfield, to sell a little poney of mine, and was told at Smithfield there was a sale at Mill-hill, close by Barnett; and in coming home the next day, which was Saturday, the corner of Basing-lane I met George Gray ; we drank together, and I asked him if he was very busy on the Saturday; he said, he had nothing to do; I told him I was going to the sale; he has not found feet to walk; but I told him I would get a chaise, when we went to Mill-hill, I was at Wilsdon-green; in coming back from Mill-hill; Gray says, I will buy my boy a pair of shoes and stockings; he gave her the guinea; I sat in the chaise; he asked me if I had any silver; I got down, when I came down, he was hesitating with this woman, about the article; he tells me since that, he put his own guinea into his pocket, and this gentlewoman gave him his guinea, and she gave him another guinea; we went to Wilsdon, and that gentleman pursued us; getting down at the Spotted Dog, where the sale was, this man, in paying for a pint of beer, found a guinea above the money; he says, I have a guinea more than I had, says he, surely! that woman has not given me two guineas instead of one; he said, he would go back and return it; and then the man came up and took us; I have sent for a character; I had some in daily waiting; I never expected any indictment of the kind; the gentlewoman acknowledged, that it was a mistake; she could not tell which of us had the guinea; because she gave us two guineas, instead of one. Court to Mrs. Gibson. Did you say it was a mistake? - No. I did not. Prisoner Jones. Here is the man that apprehended us, and heard Mrs. Gibson say it was a mistake. DITUR MILLIGAN sworn. Was you present at Mr. Gibson's house, at the time these people were apprehended? - I was present at taking the prisoners, and bringing them back to Mrs. Gibson's; I was one of the apprehenders. What passed there? - The moment I overtook them, they acknowledged they had a guinea more than belonged to them, which they had taken in mistake. How far was it where you took them from Mrs. Gibson's shop? - I suppose five or six miles. Which of them said they had a guinea by mistake? - Jones. Had you charged them with taking it before hand? - I stopped them; and immediately as I did so, they said they had a guinea by mistake; they offered me the guinea, which they said, they had of Mrs. Gibson. Had you told them before they spoke about this guinea, the reason you apprehended them? - I had not time, the moment I overtook them, I stopped them; and they acknowledged it that moment; at Mr. Gibson's house, Gray pulled out the guinea and put it down; to the best of my remembrance, Mrs. Gibson said, it was a mistake. Did any thing else pass there? - Not as I heard. Did you apprehend these people on the road to London? - No, in the road from Hendon, opposite the Bull and Bush; and away from there to the Edgeware-road at the Spotted Dog at Wilsdon-green. Prisoner's Counsel. You was here yesterday, I think? - Yes. Who was present at the time at the house, when the guinea was given back to Mrs. Gibson? - Her husband, the other man was out at the door. She immediately said, it was a mistake? - To the best of my remembrance, she did. Court. Did you hear any thing said about it? - I heard directly as they put the guinea down, they said that is your guinea Madam. Did she say how it was taken? - She said it was taken out of her hand, she said, certainly; she did not know perfectly which man it was that took it out of her hand. What did she say about the mistake; - The mistake was, that she gave him two guineas instead of one; instead of giving him his own guinea back, she said, she gave him his own and another. Why did not you tell my Lord that just now, that is very material; then she said, she had given it them out of mistake, two guineas instead of one; it was her guinea, not their's? - It is very true, and when I apprehended them, they said, that they had got a guinea in mistake; they offered me the guinea to go about their business, and for me to return into the person it belonged to. I do not quite understand that? - They said, that was the guinea they got in a mistake; I was to have nothing, only the woman's property. Who was present at that time? - This man. With was with you in the shop? - I went to Mr. Gibson's; I saw Mrs. Gibson take the guinea in her hand; and say, it was her guinea. Did you hear her say, she gave two guineas instead of one? - I did not hear her. If she had, must you have heard it? - There were a great many people in the shop; Jones took the guinea out of his pocket, and held it over to the publican and me to settle the mistake; I said, they had better go back and settle the mistake; I got into the chaise, and Milligan followed me on horse back. To Mr. Gibson. You was present at the time? - I was. Did your wife say, she had given two guineas out of a mistake? - No; she never said any such thing; Milligan lives about Hampstead; I did not know him before. Prisoner Gray. I wish you would look at these two commitments, you will find a great spite in it; the first commitment is for bail; and the next is, for feloniously stealing. Court to Mrs. Gibson. When these people were brought back again to you; did you say, you had given them two guineas instead of one? - No; I did not say so. Did you say it was a mistake? - No. Prisoner Jones to Milligan. Did you hear any offer made to Mrs. Gibson or Mr. Gibson, of any sum of money? - They wanted to make it up, and to go to the publick-house and have something to drink. JOHN GRAY , JOHN JONES , GUILTY . Transported for seven years . Tried by the first Middlesex Jury before Mr. Baron PERRYN . Court to With. Where did you find them? - They were six miles off when we found them; they were going from the Spotted Dog at Wilsdon-green, towards Church-end; when I got into the chaise, they turned round and went back. Court to Milligan. What hour was it when you came up with them? - Between three and four.