Thomas White

Level 346

Maureen Withey on 13th February 2021

Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 8.0, 13 February 2021), December 1805, trial of THOMAS PRICE THOMAS WHITE (t18051204-43). THOMAS PRICE, THOMAS WHITE, Theft > theft from a specified place, 4th December 1805. 43. THOMAS PRICE and THOMAS WHITE were indicted for feloniously stealing on the 19th of November , thirty-five pounds weight of lead, value 5 s. and a copper, value 20 s. the property of Elizabeth Harvey , fixed to a certain building of hers called a bake house . Second Count for like offence, fixed to a certain building of Elizabeth Harvey . (The Indictment was read by Mr. - and the case was stated by Mr. Gurney.) HANNAH FIGGETT sworn. Examined by Mr. - . Q. You live with Mrs. Harvey? - A. She lives at Acton ; I am dairy maid; the dairy is a little distance from the house. Q. Do you recollect what time you went in the dairy on that day? - A. About seven o'clock at night. Q. Were you also in the bakehouse? - A. Yes. Q. Do you know in what state you left the things in the bakehouse? - A. The copper was in the same place as usual, it was set, and the lead work was round it. Court. Q. How was the copper set? - A. In brick-work; it was a copper for scalding milk; it held four pails. Q. When you went there in the morning, did you find the copper there? - A. When I went there in the morning the dairy door was open. Q. Had you locked the dairy door on the night before? - A. I generally go in at the bakehouse door, I am sure I locked the bake-house door. I put the key in my pocket. and when I went there in the morning I found the bakehouse door locked. I missed some butter from the dairy, and when I came into the bakehouse I missed the copper; the place was pulled down where the copper was fixed, and some of the lead was taken off. On the same morning I saw the copper brought back again by some of the men that took them, and it was put in the same place that it was taken from. Q. Was it the same copper? - A. I believe it to be the same copper, it fitted the place exactly. Q. The lead, did you see that fitted? - A. It was fitted on, and it corresponded with the remaining lead. Q. Is Mrs. Harvey a single lady? - A. She is a widow lady. Cross-Examined by Mr. Gleed. Q. You believe it to be the same copper because it fitted the place where they put it to? - A. Yes. JOHN HIGGINS sworn. Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. Where do you live? - A. I live at Acton. Q. On Tuesday the 19th of November, had you been out in company with Mr. Tyler? - A. Yes. Q. In your return home did you get into the high road between Acton and Willsden? - A. Yes. Q. In about what hour did you arrive there? - A. About a quarter before twelve at night. Q. In your way from thence did you meet with any thing? - A. Yes, we met two men with a horse and cart. Q. Were they going towards Willsden? - A. Yes. Q. After you had come by them, did you and your comrade stop? - A. Yes, we considered to ourselves. Q. After considering together, what did you do? - A. We went away to Acton, and got ourselves armed, and come back again. Q. How soon did you see or hear a cart come? - A. In about a quarter of an hour. Q. How far beyond Acton? - A. About half a mile, we heard a cart coming. Court. Q. Was it coming to Acton? - A. Yes. Q. Did you meet it at the spot where you had saw a cart before? - A. Yes. Q. Then if it was the same cart and had gone on it had come back again? - A. Yes. Mr. Gurney. Q. Upon hearing the cart, what did you and Tyler do? - A. We got over a gate into Mr. Briggs's field, a field adjoining the road. Q. Did you hear any thing then of the persons in that cart? - A. Yes, they made up towards the gate that we got over; I heard one say to the other let us put in here. Q. What did they do next after you heard that? - A. They made away for the next gate; we heard them open the gate and put the cart in the field. Q. What time do you suppose that was? - A. It might be about a quarter past twelve. Q. What did you see or hear next? - A. We staid there in that same place till the clock struck two. Q. During the whole of that time did the cart remain still in the adjoining field to that where you was? - A. Yes. Q. When the clock struck two, did Tyler and you go into the field where the cart first came? - A. We got over the adjoining field and went up to the cart. Court. Q. The cart stood all the while in the field? - A. Yes. Mr. Gurney. Q. How did you find the horse and the cart? - A. The horse was out of the cart, he was unharnessed and tied to the shafts; we got under the hedge about a quarter of an hour longer, and then we went away to Acton, and called Thomas Soare , Charles Soare , and Thomas Nash , to our assistance. Q. When you came back did you find the cart in the same place as when you left it? - A. Yes, we all went to it, and there was nothing in it but one basket, the same that was in before. Q. What time was this? - A. About ten minutes past three. Q. Then I believe you continued watching till about half after five? - A. Yes, we divided ourselves into three companies. Q. At about half past five did you see any person come over the gates? - A. Yes, I saw two persons come over the gate into the field. Q. As soon as they came into the field did you follow them close? - A. I followed them close to the cart, and saw them both lay their loading down. Q. You were the nearest to these men of all the party? - A. Yes. Q. Upon your seeing them lay the loading down, did you halloo out to your comrades? - A. Yes, directly, they came up directly both ways and took them. Q. What was done with the cart when you took them both? - A. One of the men in our company, and one of the men that belonged to the cart, harnessed the horse. Q. Were the prisoners the two men you took into custody? - A. Yes, they were never out of my sight; they harnessed the horse while the other held up the cart. Q. Did you feel about to look for the parcels? - A. Yes, I and William Tyler groped about, and we could not find them at first. Court. Q. You did not say that you saw them carrying off anything; how was they carrying their load? - A. They had it on their shoulders. Q. Then, though it was dark, you could perceive that they had a load on their shoulders? - A. I could perceive it when they got over the gate. I saw them both lay their loads down. Mr. Gurney. Q. While they were putting the horse in the cart, did you and Tyler grope about to find anything? - A. We found a bundle of hay, which I see one of the men put down, which was one of the two loads that I saw put down. Q. I believe you did not at that time find the other? - A. We could not then find the other it was so dark. Q. Did you then take away the two prisoners to Acton, and the horse and the cart? - A. Yes, directly. Q. Did any thing pass between you and your comrades and the prisoner, in the way? - A. We got some way on; one of the prisoners wanted to know what we wanted with them; whether we wanted to kill them. Court. Q. Which of the prisoners was that? - A. Thomas White ; I told him to go quietly along, and we should not hurt them, or else we would shoot them. Mr. Gurney. Q. I believe you conveyed them both to the Anchor public house at Acton? - A. Yes. Q. When you had left them safe at the Anchor, did you and Thomas Soare return to the spot where you had taken them? - A. Yes. Q. Did you search on the spot from which the cart had been removed? - A. Yes, on the spot where he had taken the cart from; there stood the copper. Q. How near was it to the spot where you had seen one of the loads put down? - A. It might be about two or three yards. Q. What did you find besides the copper? - A. An old bag and a hatchet; we took them away with us to the Anchor. Q. After you had conveyed the prisoners to the Anchor public-house did you find any thing over the spot on which they had walked? - A. A bunch of keys. Q. In the morning you heard of Mrs. Harvey's house being robbed? - A. Yes, we took the copper to Mrs. Harvey's and tried it; it fitted exactly the setting of the brick work; this was about half past seven o'clock in the morning. Q. Did you find any lead? - A. No, a young man found some lead; he brought that to me; it is such lead as is spread over a copper; I saw it fitted on the copper with the remaining lead, it fitted exactly. Cross-examined by Mr. Gleed. Q. This was a dark night. The first time you met the men was in the Acton road? - A. Yes. Q. You were going one way and the cart another? - A. Yes. Q. How soon did you return again? - A. We got back in about a quarter of an hour. Q. When you saw the first cart, how far distant were you from the first cart? - A. We met it in the road; we were obliged to go out of the way to let the wheels of the cart pass. Q. You met the cart the second time? - A. No; we waited for it coming along the road; it was the same cart; we got then out of the way. Q. You do not mean to say that the cart that you met and the cart that returned were the same cart? - A. That I cannot say; we met a cart with two men; one leading the horse, and the other walking behind the cart. Q. When you got into the field how far was this cart from you? - A. About an 100 yards. Q. Was these men intoxicated at all? - A. They did not appear so. THOMAS SOARE sworn. Examined by Mr. Gurney. I was called up by the last witness; we prepared ourselves with fire arms, and went into Mr. Briggs's field; there was nothing but an empty basket in the cart; it was quite a dark and misty night; we separated into three parts, I continued with Tyler; I assisted in taking them; we secured them in the public house; I returned with Higgins back again to the field; we found a copper just on the spot where we had taken the cart from. Q. What became of the copper afterwards? - A. We picked up a copper and a hatchet, and a little bag; we took them all to the Anchor. I saw the copper taken to Mrs. Harvey's, it fitted exactly as though it was the same. Q. Did you see the pieces of lead that remained, and these pieces fitted? - A. Yes, it just matched one with the other. JOHN MASON sworn. Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. I believe you are in the service of Mr. Young, a butcher at Acton? - A. Yes. Q. On the morning of Wednesday the 20th of November, were you sent into the fields of your master for the beasts? - A. Yes, at about half seven o'clock in the morning, on returning home, as I was in the road, I saw something through the gate in Mr. Briggs's field, I got over the gate, I found a bag, and under that bag was three pieces of lead. Q. Did any thing strike you respecting the edges of the lead, did they appear fresh cut? - A. The edges were shining. I opened the bag and found a white pocket handkerchief, in the handkerchief were several flats of butter, the handkerchief was marked with F. Q. Did you take all these things to Mrs. Harvey, and deliver them to Hannah Figgett ? - A. Yes. Q. (To Higgins). Was it in the way in which the two men would have come from Mrs, Harvey's house? - A. Yes, they were dropped in their way from Mrs. Harvey's house, about the midway from where we apprehended them. CHARLES OLIVER sworn. Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. You are a constable of Acton, I believe? - A. Yes. Q. On Wednesday morning the 20th of November, were you sent for to the Anchor to take charge of the prisoners? - A. Yes, about seven o'clock, I took the copper to Mrs. Harvey's; I saw it fit exactly. The next day I saw the pieces of lead fitted on the outside, and it tallied with the remaining pieces of lead. I produce the pieces of lead, the copper, and the hatchet. ANTHONY GRENAWAY sworn. Examined by Mr. Gurney. Q. You are the servant of Mrs. Harvey? - A. Yes. Q. Have you brought with you the remainder of the lead which was not taken away when the bakehouse was robbed? - A. Yes. Q. Have you fitted it with the other? - A. Yes, and it fitted exactly. Price's Defence. We went down to Uxbridge with some fish, and met with a man that we knew. We drank with him at the George, and got intoxicated in liquor. We lost our way in the dark; I was leading the horse, and being dark we put the cart and horse in this field and went and laid down to sleep, and when we returned to the field these men secured us, and told us we must go with them. I brought the bundle of hay from the house where we had been drinking, and where we laid down to sleep. They went out about seven o'clock and brought this copper into the public-house. I never saw the copper before in my life. White's Defence. I have nothing further to say than we had been to Uxbridge; we missed our way and overset the cart, it being dark and foggy, we put the cart into the field. PRICE - GUILTY , aged 33. WHITE - GUILTY , aged 26. Transported for seven years . First Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Baron Graham . --------------------------------------------------- Captivity Hulk Records. HO-9-8-3. Page 14. Received seventeen from Middlesex, 6 March1806 Thomas White, age 26, Felony, Tried Middlesex, 4 Dec 1805, 7 years, sent on board Duke of Portland, 2 Jan 1807.