John Williams

342

Maureen Withey on 12th August 2021

Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 8.0, 12 August 2021), February 1796, trial of JOHN WILLIAMS CHARLES HOPPE (t17960217-6). JOHN WILLIAMS, CHARLES HOPPE, Theft > burglary, 17th February 1796. 161. JOHN WILLIAMS and CHARLES HOPPE were indicted for burglariously breaking and entering the dwelling-house of John James , on the 28th of January , about the hour of nine in the night, and stealing, two black coats, value 4l. two cotton waistcoats, value 12s. a pair of corderoy breeches, value 20s. a pair of buckskin breaches,value 21s. a pair of shag breeches, value 5s. two pair of velveret breeches, value 24s. three shirts, value 10s. six cotton gowns, value 4l. three mersella petticoats, value 12s. one silk petticoat, value 9s. a flannel petticoat, value 3s. two table-cloths, value 8s. two shawls, value 8s. a pair of dimity pockets, value 2s. a cotton window curtain, value 5s. four silk hat-bands, value 5s. a time-piece, value 30s. a silk cloak, value 50s. and three linen sheets, value 9s. the property of the said John James , in his dwelling-house .(The witnesses were examined apart at the request of the prisoners). JOHN JAMES sworn. I keep the Barley-mow in New Gravel-lane, St. Paul's, Shadwell : On the 28th of January, the same day the pirates were hanged at Execution Dock, between nine and ten o'clock in the evening; we were all up; my wife had been ill a long time; we could not sleep in our own room; we had a bed in the parlour; my wife was sitting there with another woman; I was in the tap-room about my business; my wife came out, and said, three is somebody up in my room; I said, you foolish woman, how can that be, when the door is double locked; my wife and Mr. Seally went up stairs, and I followed them to the door at the foot of the stairs, and cried out murder; and I shut up my house, and bolted every door, that nobody should go in or out; I put my back against the door; my wife and Mr. Seally came tumbling down stairs, and the two prisoners at the bar; I had my back against the door; one man jumped out at the window and escaped; my wife's legs were under her upon the stairs; I kept my back against the door, till I opened it; Hoppe was the first I met with; I took him by the hair of his head, and smacked him down in the passage, and, cried out, "help;" a neighbour of mine, Mr. Leonard, was in the tap-room eating his supper off a herring; I put Hoppe in a box in the tap-room, along with Mr. Leonard, while I went after the other; he went into a long back room, but it was all fast; he could not get out, Mr. Davis went into the room after him, and he called to me; I went to him, and I caught hold of William, by his hair, the same as I did the other; that was in my long room; he told me, if I did not let him go, he would blow my brains out; a pistol dropped from him, under Mr. Sealy's feet; Mr. Sealy picket it up; it was loaded with ball; then I searched his pocket; he was resolute; then I put my knee on his breast, to keep him down; and I took a little japanned box, with a bottle of phosehorus and matches, out of his pocket, and a small chssed, and a knife with a look to it, such as they pick horses feet with; before the officer came, I secured him with a card; the cord was brought; down stairs to me, to tie his legs with; and I tied his hands with a handkerchief that was about his neck; as to Hoppe he behaved exceeding well. Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. Hoppe behaved exceeding well? - A. Yes; civilly, and no fire arms. Q. How many persons were in the tap-room when you first heard the alarm? - A. There were only two women and two lodgers in the tap-room. Q. Do you mean to say that Williams was not in the tap-room when you first heard the alarm? - A. I will swear that neither of them were. Q. Did you not say so before the Magistrate - A. No. Q. You are sure of that? - A. Yes; I never saw Williams in my life till I took him and tied him, to the best of my knowledge; I know Hoppe's father very well; he is a good honest man. Court. Q. Neither of them were in your taproom? - A. Neither of them, upon my oath, to the best of my knowledge, since I have kept the house. SARAH JAMES sworn. I am the wife of the last witness: I was fitting in the parlour, in the evening, between nine and ten o'clock; I heard a noise over my head; I took a candle and came out into the tap-room; I asked Mr. Seally to go up stairs with me; I heard a noise in my room; and he went up with me; when I got up, I saw the door open and a light in the room; I had been in the room that day before; I left it double locked, and took the key away with me in my pocket; I saw young Hoppe, in the middle of the room, packing up my things; Williams was at the drawers; and then Mr. Seally pushed before me; young Hoppe pushed Williams from the drawers; and Williams snapped a pistol at Mr. Seally and me; we were both together; they put out their light and the light that I had, and trumbled us down stairs. Q. Who knocked the light out? - A. One of the men, but I cannot say which. Q. Did they push Seally down stairs? - A. Yes. Q. Were there any more men in the room besides the two prisoners? - A. Yes; one more, who made his escape out at the window. Q. Did you see three in the room? - A. I did; I screamed out for assistance; Mr. James ordered the doors to be shut, that nobody should go in or out, till the prisoners were secured; Mr. James and Mr. Seally secured Hoppe first, and then the other; I went up stairs directly after, before they were taken away, and I found all my things packed up in a petticoat, the same as they are now, (producing them); they had been left in the drawers and boxes; the time-piece was upon the mantle piece. Jury. Q. Were the drawers locked? - A. No. Court. Q. Were these things your own and your husband's? - A. Yes. Court. Q. Do you know how these people had got in? - A. They had come in at the passage door, and went up stairs. Q. Did you examine the door of your room? - A. Yes; it had been unlocked by picklock keys. Q. At what time in the evening had you been in the room? - A. In the afternoon, before it was dark; it was in the course of the afternoon; I cannot say at what time; it might be between four and five o'clock. Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. It might be an hour or two before you light candles, that you were up stairs? - A. It might. Q. The window was not fastened when you went up stairs? - A. Yes, it was; it had not been open all day. Q. Then it must be dark in the room? - A. No; there is a hole in the shutter. Q. It would take some time, you know, to pack up these things; how long these persons had been there, it was impossible for you to tell? - A. I cannot say. Q. Did you always say that Williams was up stairs? - A. Yes. Q. Did not you say, before the Magistrate, that you could not tell whether he was or not? - A. No; I never did. Q. A great many of these are old things? - A. Very few; they are most of them new. Q. Hoppe behaved remarkably well? - A. He did not behave with violence. Q. He is a lad of respectable parents? - A. I don't know. Court. Q. How long was it dark before you heard these people? - A. It was between nine and ten o'clock. Q. Upon the 28th of January? - A. Yes. Q. Had it been dark two hours? - A. Yes. Q. Can you put any value upon these things? - A. Yes; they are worth 20l. Q.But putting a moderate value upon them? - A. I think that is under-valuing them, they were almost all new. JOHN SEALLY sworn. (Produces a pistol, a bottle of phosphorus, with matches, a chiffel, and a knife). I went up stairs with Mrs. James, and found three people in the room; they were emptying the drawers; one was handing the things to the other, to put into a petticoat, upon the floor; I attempted to pull the door to, to keep them in, and Hoppe immediately pushed the door from me, and made a rush at me; Williams put a pistol over Hoppe's shoulder and strapped it at me, it stashed in the pan; he held it about as near to me as my finger is to my forehead, (about half a yard), it blazed up as a pistol or a gun does when it goes off; they rushed down stairs, thinking to push me down the stairs; I could not see much of the one that made his escape; but these two scuffled with me, and we fell down stairs, the woman and all together, eleven or twelve stairs, without touching them with our feet; Hoppe was under me, and Williams upon me; I called out for the door to be opened, and got hold of Hoppe's coat, and delivered him to Mr. James, and with his assistance we took him to another man in the taproom, and gave him charge of him; Mr. Davis called out, in the long-room, and said, here is another; I went to his assistance; and Mr. James and Mr. Davis had got him down upon his back, on the floor; Mr. Davis then said, Mr. Seally take care, he has a pistol somewhere; I turned round, and picked up this pistol from the side of his pocket. Q. Have you had it ever since? - A. No; I delivered it to Mr. Cook, the officer; he is not here; I went to him yesterday to setch it; I had marked it, so that I know it is the same; this phosphorus bottle was found in Williams's pocket, with matches in it, and a chissel, and this is Williams's knife, that was taken from his pocket; these two keys were found, the next morning, under a pot that they keep the liquor in to scower the pots with; I tied Williams, and confined him. Mr. Knapp. Q. All these things were found upon Williams? - A. Yes. Q. None upon Hoppe? - A. No, not a single thing. GEORGE LEONARD sworn. I was at Mr. James's on the 28th of January, at night, I was getting my supper, and had a put of beer with the lodgers; Mrs. James said, she heard a noise over head, and asked Mr. Seally to go up stairs with her; they went up, I sat and eat my supper, till I saw Hoppe at the stair-foot door upon the ground; I took him, and held him till the officer came; I picked up a black silk cloak under the place where he was sitting, (it is produced). Mrs. James. I know this is the cloak, because I sewed it with a piece of threat at the back part. Q.(To Mrs. James.) Is that your cloak? - A. Yes; It was in the drawers. EDWARD ROGERS sworn. On the 28th of last month, there came two women to the door, where we resort, opposite to the office, at Shadwell, and cried out, that there were some men had entered the house of the Barley-mow, and desired we would go with them; accordingly, Mr. Cooke, and Mr. Hayees, and I went there; we rapped at the door, and it was opened; the tallest man of these two, I believe his name isWilliams, was lying on his back in the passage, the other man was in the tap-room; there were a great many people in the tap-room, men and women; seeing this man secured, I made towards the man in the tap-room; I took him into custody, my brother officer brought this man out of the passage, where he had been lying, and we tied them together, and brought them to the office. WILLIAM DAVIS sworn. On the 28th of January, I went down to order some beer at the Barley-mow; I was talking with the landlord and Mr. Seally; the landlady came out of the back parlour, and said to Mr. Scally, I wish you would go up stairs with me, for I think I hear somebody in my room, they went up stairs, and I went to the back door; before we got there, we heard the cry of murder, thieves, stop them, we then went back to the stairs-foot door; Mr. James cried out, shut the door, the door was shut; as soon as the door was shut, Hoppe, the little short one, was let out from the stairs; there was such a noise, we thought there were a great many more than there were; while we were securing him, Williams slipped down stairs, and got into the back room, which is a long room; I said to Mr. James, when conducting the other into the tap-room, there is one gone into the backroom, and he was standing against a back door that leads into a bye street, and he said there is nobody here; Mr. James caught hold of him by the hair, and he said, if he did not let him go, he would fire; and in the scuffle, at the further end of the passage, a pistol dropped from his pocket; I told him to see, for there was a pistol, it was snapped then in the passage, and I saw the fire; I cannot say who it was did it, but Mr. Seally has told me since, it was he that snapped it himself; we searched his pocket, and found a phosphorus-box, and chiffel, knife, with a hook to it, and then we tied his hands and his legs; that is all I know. Williams's defence. My Lord, I refer my defence to my Connsel. Hoppe's defence. It is the first offence, and I hope for mercy; as for the prisoner Williams, he knows nothing of the robbery, and I never saw him before in my life. For Hoppe. JAMES MARSY, sworn. I am a taylor in Houndsditch, I have known Hoppe ever since he came from the Bluccoat-school; from that time he has borne a very sober, honest, industrious character; his parents are very hard working, Industrious people; within these few months I have not known any thing of him. JOHN HERRING sworn. I live in Houndsditch, I am in the coal-trade; I have known Hoppe, to the best of my knowledge, twenty five years. Q. That is almost all his life; is it not? - A. Yes, before he went into the Bluecoat-school; I never heard any thing to his detriment in my life, till the present charge. Q. Did he bear a general good character or not? - A. When he used to work at home along with his father, I never saw any thing amiss of the man; he is a tinman, and lives two doors from me. JOHN ROBINSON sworn. I live in Hounsditch, about thirty yards from the prisoner's father; I have knewn him four years, or better; he has borne a very good character for any thing I ever heard; he worked with his father as a tinman, he was apprenticed to him; he was always a good lad. JOHN COOKE sworn. I am a baker; I live next door to the prisoner's father; I have known him about twelve or fourteen years; his general character is very good; I never heard any things amiss of him before this time. Hoppe. My Lord, the man that jumped out at the window, was the man that fired; this prisoner is an innocent man; I never saw him before in my life. Williams, GUILTY . Death . (Aged 28.) Hoppe, GUILTY . Death . (Aged 22.) Tried by the first Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Justice LAWRENCE.

Crime date January 28, 1796, trial date February 17, 1796 at the Old Bailey, 28 years at the time. Charged with breaking into the house of John James. NO FURTHER INFORMATION KNOWN