John Hoberman

343

Maureen Withey on 15th February 2023

Tasmanian Records https://stors.tas.gov.au/CON22-1-1_0444 Per Calcutta, John Hoberman, Middx J.D. 28 April 1802, 7 years. -------------------------------------------------------- Old Bailey Proceedings Online (www.oldbaileyonline.org, version 8.0, 15 February 2023), April 1802, trial of JOHN HOBLEMAN (t18020428-23). JOHN HOBLEMAN, Theft > grand larceny, 28th April 1802. 288. JOHN HOBLEMAN was indicted for feloniously stealing, on the 19th of March , thirteen pounds of tobacco, value 14s. the property of Ann Kemp , widow .(The prisoner being a foreigner, a Jury of half foreigners were sworn.) John Griffin , John-Gotlieb Braun , Thomas White , George Dupple , William Finch , George Roebuck, George Dobson , Gaspar Melanscheg , Edward Ropberts , James Tregent , William Clements , Andrew Schabner .(The case was opened by Mr. Gurney.) ANN KEMP sworn. - I am a manufacturer of tobacco , in Whitechapel-road : On the 19th of March, the prisoner was in my service, he was employed in manufacturing tobacco ; I went into the cellar under the shop, between eleven and twelve o'clock, I saw four boxes, each box containing about five pounds of cut tobacco, they were all full, there were no lids to the boxes; the prisoner at the bar was then at work in the cellar, there was no other person there, I left him there, I gave him no orders respecting the tobacco in the boxes; about half an hour afterwards, before he went to dinner, I went out, and left my son to mind the shop. Q. Is there any way to go to the cellar without coming through your shop? - A. There is no other way, it is impossible; I came back between four and five o'clock in the afternoon, the prisoner was then in the cellar; I had not time to pull off my bonnet and cloak when the officer came and took the prisoner into custody, he told him he wanted him about a little tobacco; he seemed very much confused, and said he did not know any thing about a little tobacco; I went down stairs directly the officer took him away, and examined the boxes; upon a large cover-head, upon which the boxes stood, was some loose tobacco, about six pounds, and the boxes standing by the side of a tub, quite empty. Q.Did they stand in the same place in which they were in the morning? - A. No. Q.During the time you were in the house, after you had seen the boxes filled, did any body else than the prisoner go into the cellar before you went out? - A. No. Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. This man had been a manufacturer of tobacco for himself, had not be? - A. Never. Q. Had he carried on no business in tobacco himself? - A.For the sale of tobacco, about a year and a half ago. Q. Who was the journeyman then employed with him? - A. Not any one. Q. You had employed a man of the name of Stevens before, had not you? - A. Never in the warehouse. Q. You did not weigh the tobacco in the morning? - A. I did not; the boxes generally contain about five pounds each. Q. What age is your son? - A. Twelve years old. Court. Q. Was there any thing more to be done by the prisoner to this tobacco, in order to manufacture it? - A. Only to run it through a sieve. Q. He must have taken it out of the boxes for that purpose? - A. He must. Q. And would this cover-head be a proper place for him to put it before he put it in the sieve? - A. Yes. WILLIAM KEMP called. Q. How old are you? - A. Twelve. Q. Do you know what you are to be sworn to? - A. To speak the truth. Q. What will become of any person, if, having sworn to speak the truth, they should speak that which is not true? - A. They will go into flames.(He is sworn.) Mr. Gurney. Q. On the 19th of March, did you take care of the shop while your mother was out? - A. Yes; she went out about twelve o'clock. Q. At that time who was in the cellar? - A.Hobleman; he went away to dinner in about half an hour, he usually came back from dinner about one o'clock; that day he did not come back till above half after four. Q.During the time he was gone, did any other person go into the cellar? - A. No; he went down into the cellar before he went out; I asked him what made him stay so late; he said his child had had an accident, and had fell in the fire; I said, very well, and he went down; my mother came in in about twenty minutes, or half an hour after; and in about ten minutes after that the officer came. Q. Then from that time, till the officer came, had any other person but your mother been into the cellar? - A. No; I had been in the shop the whole time. Q. Are you quite sure nobody had been in the cellar? - A. Yes. Court. Q. He did not take any bundle with him, did he? - A. No; he went with his hat under his coat, as he generally does. ROBERT BROWN sworn. - Examined by Mr. Gurney. I am one of the officers employed at Shadwell-office: On the 19th of March, I was sent for to the shop of a Mrs. Stevens, in Ratcliff-highway, where I found a woman of the name of Coles, in the custody of Elby; Mrs. Stevens, and I, went to the house of Mrs. Kemp, and took the prisoner into custody. Q. How far is Stevens's house from Mrs. Kemp's? - A.About three quarters of a mile; Hobleman asked me what I took him for; I told him for a little tobacco; he told me he knew nothing about it. I took him into custody, and brought him away to Shadwell office; in going along to the office, he told me his mistress allowed him tobacco; I then asked him where he lived, and he pointed the house out to me; I afterwards went and searched that house, and, in a cupboard in the bed-room, I found these two parcels of tobacco, weighing six pounds and a half, (produces them;) I searched further in a little bit of a shed in a back part of the house, and found several parcels of tobacco in different parts of the place, but Mrs. Kemp did not identify them. Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q.Who was present when this conversation passed about his mistress allowing him tobacco? - A.There was no person with me, Elby was waiting in the New-road for me. Q. He does not talk very good English, does he? - A. Very good for a German. Q. He speaks broken English, like a German? - A. Yes. Q. Therefore you might very easily have mistaken what he said? - A. No. Q. You found a quantity of ochre at his house, did not you? - A. Yes. Q. A large quantity? - A. Yes, there was a little cask about three parts full. Q. They tell me that will give a colour to tobacco? - A. I do not know. Q.Upon your oath, did not his master admitthat she had sent that ochre to his house? - A. Yes, she did. WILLIAM ELBY sworn. - A. On the 19th of March, I was sent for to Mr. Stevens's, in Ratcliff-highway, to take into custody a woman of the name of Coles; I received this parcel of tobacco from Mr. Stevens. (Produces it.) THOMAS ELLISON sworn. - I am a servant to Mr. Stevens, a tobacconist: On the 19th of March, Susannah Coles brought some tobacco, to our shop, which was afterwards delivered to Elby, the officer; she was at our shop twice that day; she came first about half past one, and then, by my master's directions, I followed her about a quarter of a mile: as she was going along the New-road, she spoke to the prisoner at the bar; Coles waited at the corner of Union-street about half an hour, till she saw him coming down the New-road; as soon as she saw him, she ran across the road to him; I saw her give him something, but what it was I cannot tell; after their conversation together for some time, about a quarter of an hour, I missed them. Q. Had she received any thing at your shop? - A. She had received fourteen shillings for the tobacco that she had brought. Q. Did you know Hobleman? - A. Yes, I knew where he lived; she came again in the afternoon, and brought seven pounds of tobacco. Q. At that time you had the officer waiting to take her into custody? - A. No; I fetched the officer, and she was taken into custody; the tobacco was given to Elby. Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. - Q. You never saw her at the man's house? - A. No. Q. This was in the street? - A. Yes. Q. So they talked together; but you did not hear a word? - A. No. Q.(To Mrs. Kemp.) Look at these parcels of tobacco found at his house; is it the same sort of tobacco that was contained in the boxes you speak of? - A. The very same; it had been cut that morning, I saw him at work upon it. Q. Was it finished tobacco? - A. It was not; it had not gone through the sieve, nor ever does, it is returns, which will not go through. Q. Had the operation of sisting been performed when you saw it in the morning? - A. No. Q. Has it since? - A. Yes it has. Q. Was there time enough for him to have fisted it before he went away to dinner? - A.He might rub a box through in a few minutes. Q. You saw the tobacco the next day before the Magistrate? - A. Yes. Q. Had it the appearance of fresh manufactured tobacco? - A. It had. Q. Did you compare it with the tobacco that was left upon the cover head? - A. No. Q. Was it the same sort of tobacco that was contained in the boxes? - A. It was. Q. How long have you been in the tobacco manufactory? - A. My husband was sixteen years. Q. How long were you yourself employed in it? A.Almost all the time; my husband was almost always ill. Q. Are you able to judge of tobacco? - A.Yes; it was of a particular flavour. Q. Are you able to say, with certainly, that it was newly cut tobacco? - A. I am certainly positive of it. Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q. Can you tell me what is the use of ochre? - A. For many things in the tobacco business. Q. It will give a colour to tobacco? - A.It will, to what you call dark sisting from shag tobacco. Q. It will have the effect of making an inserior sort of tobacco look like a superior tobacco? - A. I never used any. Q. I believe it is forbid to be in the possession of a tobacco manufacturer? - A. I don't know; a cask of ochre was sent to his house, but what he used it for I can truly say I don't know. Q. This never was your ochre? - A. I paid for it; he bought it; he said he wanted it. Q.Was it your's or his? - A. I paid for it. Q.Was it your's or his? - A. It was his while it was in his possession. Q. Was it your property or his property? - A. I paid for it. Q. Did you pay for it for your own? - A. I did; he persuaded me to buy it. Q. It was removed to his house by your desire? - A. No. Q. He took it by your authority? - A. Yes. Q. How long had it been kept at his house? - A. I cannot say. Q. How many months had it been kept at his house? - A. Not weeks, I dare say. Q. Can you give us some sort of guess? - A. No, I cannot. Q. Was it removed to his house the first day you bought it? - A. No; it had been there some weeks. Q. So that your manufacturer of tobacco took this ochre to his house? - A. Yes, it was in a stable where my horse stands, at his house. Q. Do you keep a horse and chaise? - A. A little cart. Court. Q.Do you allow the prisoner any tobacco? - A.Never. Q. Do you ever know of any tobacco being carried from your house to his? - A. No. Q.Not to be manufactured in any shape or way? - A. No. - STEVENS sworn. - I am a tobacconist. Q. Is a tobacconist able to speak to tobacco newly cut? - A. Yes. Q. Did you see that tobacco produced at the Justice's, which was found at the prisoner's house? - A. I did. Q.Was it or not newly manufactured tobacco? - A. It was. Cross-examined by Mr. Knowlys. Q.Fourteen pounds of tobacco would make a pretty large bundle? - A. Yes. Q. Is there not a process by which old tobacco may be made to resemble newly cut tobacco? - A. It may be mended, but cannot be made so perfect as that. Q. I believe ochre will give it a better appearance? - A. Ochre never was used by any person in the trade to tobacco of this description. Q. What effect will ochre have upon tobacco? - A. Ochre, when used, is used to tobacco of a different colour, to make it appear the colour of this. Q. Will that give to inferior tobacco the appearance of superior? - A. It is never used for that purpose, it is merely to alter the colour, and not the qualtity. The prisoner left his defence to his counsel, and called four witnesses, who gave him a good character. GUILTY , aged 27. Transported for seven years . First Middlesex Jury, before Mr. Baron Thompson.